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[00:00:01] HOST: Coming up on this episode of AARP's Perfect Scam. [00:00:03] This guy looks very nice and whatever he told me, I feel very bad for him and he's a businessman and

okay. [00:00:11] HOST: It's an all too common scenario in this age of online love and dating. What seems like the perfect match at first turns out to be anything but that, but

we're not just talking about someone who doesn't live up to expectations. These are con artists who know every trick in the book when it comes to attracting attention, making a

connection, and eventually, walking away with the victim's money. And you might be surprised to learn how easy it is to fall into the trap. For the AARP's Perfect Scam, I'm

your host, Will Johnson and I'd like to introduce once again, my cohost and AARP's Fraud Watch Network Ambassador, Frank Abagnale. Frank, welcome back. [00:00:43] Frank Abagnale:

Thank you. I'm glad to be here. [00:00:45] HOST: So here we are again this week we are talking about dating scams, romance scams and big business, right? [00:00:50] Frank Abagnale:

Absolutely. [00:00:52] HOST: This is one that makes sense in terms of being able to get to somebody through their heart. It seems like a low-hanging fruit almost for a scam artist.

[00:01:02] Frank Abagnale: It's true and it also, it's amazing to me how much money some people have given to these scam artists, even though their family members are telling them

it's a scam and trying to tell them not to be involved in the relationship. They just continue to send money, over and over again. [00:01:19] HOST: It's easy to almost feel like

these people are so gullible but you have to put yourselves in their shoes to some extent as well. [00:01:26] Frank Abagnale: Absolutely. [00:01:27] HOST: Alright, so on this episode we will

introduce you to Elaine. After ending a relationship, she was interested in meeting someone, someone new. So, she went on a dating site and before too long ran across someone. (MUSIC SEGUE)

[00:01:40] Elaine: He put down a long, you know, a description of who he is and what he is and that he lost his wife about so many years ago and he had this son who he lost in, he was in

the military and he, he lost his son in Afghanistan, and he's alone and he, he's looking for, you know, somebody. Anyway, so he started connecting with me and the communication

went on and on without me knowing who he is. [00:02:16] HOST: Will Johnson: And so it's fair to say you connected with somebody on the site and initially you liked him, you enjoyed

having a conv--, messages back and forth? [00:02:25] Elaine: I enjoyed the conversation and he, he started communicating with me under a name and then he also put in a, an email address

where I could get to talking to him in more detail. [00:02:44] HOST: And did you, at any point early on did you at all question this or did it all seem pretty legitimate to you? [00:02:50]

Elaine: I didn't question, because I trusted him. He told me what he is. He was supposedly a marine engineer other BS or whatever he came, come up with. [00:03:03] HOST: Did he play it

up on the romance side at all as well? [00:03:05] Elaine: Oh yes. He told me, and he, he put all these wonderful talk, you know sweet talk to, to a person who was ready to absorb all that.

So he said that he has a beautiful rose garden and he would like to send me some roses, what is my favorite color? So I gave him a color. And then one day in the evening, and I gave him my

address of course, how else are they able to deliver flowers to me? So, one evening at about 8 o'clock in the evening, the doorbell rings, and there is an elderly gentleman, person, I

don't know if he's a gentleman if he's connected with that guy, he's not a gentleman. He holds in his hand a beautiful colorful balloon, Happy Birthday or whatever it

was, and he had a beautiful vase with a gorgeous big bouquet of flowers. I said, "Oh my God, it's so beautiful, and oh it's so beautiful that he sends me flowers," but

that was in the very beginning. (MUSIC SEGUE) [00:04:33] HOST: So he really, I mean this person like you said, they're really good at what they do and he went through a lot of steps,

including sending you something at your house. [00:04:42] Elaine: He made it so believable. So anyway, he was, he was telling me one day that he has to go overseas and he has to, he's

in contact with to buy minerals overseas and he needs to go and he's packing right away because he has a fantastic deal, and he is leaving within a few hours because he has to catch the

deal. [00:05:17] HOST: Let me ask you, two questions: how long was, had you been messaging with him before he gave you this story and ... [00:05:25] Elaine: It was, it went on for maybe two

weeks or thereabout and you know I said, okay, this guy looks very nice and whatever he told me, I feel very bad for him and he's a businessman and okay. [00:05:42] HOST: Had he

mentioned his business overseas before? [00:05:45] Elaine: Well that's what he said to me, that he was mine, he was buying minerals from different mines in, in Ghana. [00:05:57] HOST:

Okay. [00:05:58] Elaine: So when he gets there, he send me this message and he tells me that they will, they have a law they will not accept his travelers’ checks, whatever he said, American

Express or whatever. So what he said is that he, he needs to have some money and it should have given me the red flag right at that moment, but I didn't, I didn't catch it. So,

stupid me, I, and he said, "You have to run down right away because I need the money, otherwise I can't go to the mines and that could be in anyplace in, in the country."

[00:06:48] HOST: How much money are we talking? Did he mention that at this point? [00:06:52] Elaine: The total of that was maybe around $3,000. [00:06:57] HOST: Will Johnson: And did you

send it all at once? So he told you to... [00:06:59] Elaine: No, I did not send it all at once. And then me made all kinds of other excuses that he needed, that he has to pay the hotel where

he's staying, he cannot anywhere. That he has to prove to the mines that he has the money, and all that stuff. And he said, "I need," I don't know, another $1000 or

whatever. And I said, "Well, okay." He said, "Run down immediately to Walmart. And while I am standing at the counter at Walmart, the people there get a call from some

authority from the transmission authority who cashes these payments. She says, "I am not letting you, you know, to let this money transaction go through because it's a scam and you

will get a refund on this money." [00:08:01] HOST: That's amazing. So she... [00:08:02] Elaine: They knew already that this is a scam and it should not be handed out. And then she

said, "I am putting a block on this," and she's sending the money back to, to the Walmart people and I got the credit for the money. Anyway, he sent the message to me when I

got home, and he said that, you know, he made up other stories. Later on, what he said was, "Don't worry, I am going to send, give you back all the money you sent to me because I

am not even going, when I come back to the, to the states, I am not even going to stop at my city. I am flying straight to you to Tucson." [00:08:58] HOST: At this point, Elaine's

made multiple trips to Walmart and sent a lot of money to this guy. And so she finally decides to do some checking around on him. [00:09:07] Elaine: I got the background check from different

companies. Well, first of all they had addresses all over the place and then the address that he gave me was a house that was for sale. It was not a house where anybody lived. So it was

phony, every step of the way was phony. [00:09:31] HOST: You know, this kind of took your heart for a ride, too, I imagine. Talk about that, emotionally. [00:09:35] Elaine: Well, I was

emotional, emotionally vulnerable. And I, it kind of you know felt good that there was somebody who, without knowing me, wants to have, you know talk to me nice and sweet talk and whatever.

[00:09:58] HOST: And send you a rose from his garden, as a matter of fact. [00:10:00] Elaine: Yes. [00:10:02] HOST: You know, this kind of thing, first of all I want to say, we really think

you're brave for talking about this, because there's a lot of people who, you know, it's not easy when you've been scammed or you feel like you're the victim of

something, that you've done something wrong. Has that been hard for you? So thank you, first of all, and then is it hard to talk about here today or have you gotten used to telling the

story? And do you talk about it to others? [00:10:23] Elaine: I have no problem telling people. I will tell anybody. [00:10:28] HOST: You know, I'm reading, I have some notes about your

story and one thing you told somebody here before is, if you’re smart, you have to disconnect from all of this. I think that's a... [00:10:38] Elaine: Yeah, you should disconnect and

I, it, it is also very important and it’s important for me what I learned. First of all, you have to speak to the person. You have to speak and hear the conversation from a live person. You

can tell a lot from speaking to someone and to hear his reactions or her reactions or whatever because there are women scammers too. [00:11:10] HOST: I hope you find somebody who will send

you a legitimate real rose from their rose garden. [00:11:15] Elaine: (laugh). Well I don't know. I don't need rose garden, I need a real person. [00:11:21] HOST: Yeah, well,

that's true, right, right, not just the rose. I have a title for this episode you might like. [00:11:26] Elaine: Oh yeah? Well, look it's been... [00:11:27] HOST: Gemstone jerk.

[00:11:29] Elaine: (chuckle) (MUSIC SEGUE) [00:11:34] HOST: So Frank, I feel like if I'm on a dating site or if anyone's on a dating site and minerals or mines are mentioned,

I'm going to stay away from it. Stay away from that person. [00:11:43] Frank Abagnale: Yeah, you know it's just amazing to me the romance scams, they've been going on for

generations. Some romance scams are somebody trying to rip you off for a small amount of money. Some are very wealthy women who have been conned out of millions and millions of dollars in

romance scams. First of all, you know, you, you never want to send someone money that you never actually even met. [00:12:07] HOST: Bottom line, that, that's the first thing. [00:12:08]

Frank Abagnale: That's the first thing, that's a red flag. A lot of times these scams work more on the fact that you get to know the person on the phone or over the internet,

maybe you met them through a dating site, you have actually never met them personally. They befriend you, they invest a lot of time in talking to you, maybe sending you flowers, having a

relationship with you online or over the phone, and then it gets to, well I see you're not feeling very well today. No, I'm, I've had to go down to the doctor and I have to

have this operation, but the operation costs $5,000 or I need to get to have the operation, and I don't have that kind of money. And then they almost get you to be the one who says,

well you know, I could help you with that. I could give you the money and they're not even asking you for the money. They turn it around so that you're offering the money to them.

Again, you know, a lot of times it's like when I speak to a younger woman, and she says to me, "I've been dating this guy for six months, but I'm, you know, I don't,

I don't, I'm a little suspicious about this guy." I say, "Well let me ask you this, have you ever been to his house?" "Uh, no." "Have you ever been

able to call him at home or only on his cell phone?" "I only have his cell phone, I don't have his home number." Then you should be suspicious. And it always turns out

eventually that probably the guy's married. Maybe he's not trying to rip her off for any money, but he's deceiving her because he's married and he's trying to have

an affair with somebody and not let them know that they're married. [00:13:40] HOST: But love is so hard, Frank. I mean you find somebody who's paying attention to you, you kind of

see all of a sudden, they're getting lavished with whatever it may be, oh, I love your picture and I really want to meet you. I mean... [00:13:51] Frank Abagnale: And I'm fine

with that up to the point to when they say send me some money. [00:13:55] HOST: Don't send them money. [00:13:51] Frank Abagnale: Okay? That's when I, then I have to stop, no

matter how much I'm involved with the person or taken over by the person's sweetness and what they've done for me. The minute they start asking you for money, then that raises

a red flag that I have to say, who is this really? Do I really know who this is because I actually have never met them, I don't really know a whole lot about them, so before I invest

money, it would be like you investing money in something, before I invest in it, I'm going to check it out to make sure that it's real. It's the same way here. Before I invest

money in this individual, I need to make sure I know who this individual is. [00:14:30] HOST: So have a cup of coffee first before, together before you start sending money for the mines in

another part of the world. [00:14:36] Frank Abagnale: Absolutely. [00:14:37] HOST: The other thing and you mentioned this a little bit about the amount of time they put in, but these romance

scams, I mean sometimes that can be like a really long drawn out romance, where people stay with somebody, but they must have multiple ones. [00:14:48] Frank Abagnale: And that's it,

you know, it's like all scams where people say, well I can't believe the time they invested in, with this, to just get this money out of me, and I explain to them you're one

of 100. [00:14:57] HOST: It wasn't the only game. [00:14:57] Frank Abagnale: They just move on. When they hang up from you, they move onto the next one. They're working constant

scams, and each one is coming in paying out as they go back, so they're not just sitting home doing one call and then investing all this time in one call. They, they've got

multiple calls going on and they're each at a certain point to where they're going to move to the next position to where in the end they end up getting the money from everybody.

We've even had them where if I don't get the money, someone's going to kill me because I owe these people this money and they're, they're not very nice people.

[00:15:26] HOST: You do get that. [00:15:27] Frank Abagnale: Yeah, you hit those scams where, you know... [00:15:30] HOST: As soon as you hear that, cut bait and run. [00:15:32] Frank

Abagnale: Yeah, I mean, again, I, if I was the best advice I'd have is say you know listen, carry on the romance if you want, but if you've never met the person, you really

don't know who they are, the moment they come along and say, give me some money, you need to stop and ask, do I really know who this person is? [00:15:51] HOST: Back in your previous

life, women came and went through various elements of what, of what you did. We know about the flight attendants and how they were, how you put that into play in order to cash checks again

most of the time, you weren't scamming them directly. Was romance a scam for you ever, or did you have experience of you know tugging at heartstrings? [00:16:11] Frank Abagnale: I

think, you know, I, for me, it was so unusual because here I was a 16, 17-year-old, dating girls 25 and 27 because they assumed I was a pilot or the doctor or the lawyer, so I was pretending

to be this person 10 years older than I was, so... [00:16:26] HOST: Your confidence level must have been amazing. [00:16:28] Frank Abagnale: Yes, and but all the, all the girls that I went

out with were much older than me, so people always used to say to me, well did you ever get really involved with one? And I said, no, because my mother would never approve of me getting

married. I was too, I was too young, and so I was conscious of never giving a lot of this, I love you, and you know, I bought them nice things, but it was always, I tried to keep the

relationship casual because I knew that I was so much younger than them and the relationship... [00:16:53] HOST: And wasn't it all brand new? This, even if you did like somebody?

[00:16:56] Frank Abagnale: Yeah, and I'll tell you, I'll tell you a quick story that's actually in, in the book, Catch Me If You Can. [00:17:01] HOST: We love stories.

[00:17:02] Frank Abagnale: I, I had met a girl who was a flight attendant with American Airlines, and she was probably about 10 years older than me. She thought I was her age. I dated her

for a while and she got very attached to me, and she asked me if I would come home to California to meet her family over the weekend. I was reluctant to do it, but I, I went there and met

her family and... [00:17:25] HOST: As a pilot. [00:16:57] Frank Abagnale: As the pilot and she thought me to believe that I was a pilot and, and I started to realize over that weekend that

this person was getting real serious about me, and this is not a good thing because I, by meeting her parents, I think she was interested in maybe getting married and, you know, that's

not going to happen. So we went on a bicycle ride in her neighborhood, and we got to a park, and I had never confided in anybody about who I really was. So sitting under a tree, I said,

"I need to tell you something, I'm only telling you this cause I care about you," and I said, "I don't want to hurt you," but I said, "The truth is,

I'm not a pilot. And actually I'm only 18 years old. I'm running from the police because I ran away from home and I've written a bunch of bad checks." First, she

thought I was kidding because she said, "I met you on the flight. You were sitting in the cockpit in the jump seat." I said, "Yeah, I ride around on these planes, you know in

the jump seat," but I said... [00:18:16] HOST: Deadheading. [00:18:17] Frank Abagnale: This is the truth. So she got very upset and then she said, "Well let's go back to my

house." And I said, “You know what, why don't you go back, I'm going to sit here for a while, I'll, I'll be back there shortly." So she left on the bike and a

few minutes later I got on the bike, but I went one street past her street, went down the back, so that I could look for her yard from the back and all these police cars were out there. Now,

I thought there you go. People only like you for who they think you are; I'm not the pilot, she turned me in. So, I'm never ever going to tell anybody again who I really am, you

can't really trust anybody. Now that's the thinking of an adolescent 18-year-old. Later on in life, who I've met this girl since then, I met her brother since then years

later, she obviously was an adult who went back and said, this is a kid, the police are looking for him, he's a runaway, you know, somebody needs to do something before somebody gets

hurt or the kid gets hurt, and so she did the right thing. But in the eyes of an adolescent, I looked at it like see, you can't be honest with anybody, they're just going to,

they're going to just turn you in, so I'm going to never tell anybody again the truth, and I didn't. [00:19:25] HOST: You learned like the wrong lesson. [00:19:26] Frank

Abagnale: Yes, the wrong lesson. [00:19:28] HOST: And how different your life might have been had you actually gotten caught earlier? [00:19:31] Frank Abagnale: That's right. [00:19:32]

HOST: And I mean, the thing that keeps coming back to me in your story, too, is that you, you did have this, this life of crime, but it has turned into what you do today. [00:19:41] Frank

Abagnale: Right. [00:19:42] HOST: And so maybe things had turned out differently you wouldn't have had this incredible... [00:19:46] Frank Abagnale: I am a big believer... [00:19:47]

HOST: Be thankful. [00:19:47] Frank Abagnale: Yeah, I am a big believer that things happen in life for a reason. You know, so I, I look at that as that's something that happened in my

life and I was able to turn what was a very negative thing into a very positive thing, and I think that says a lot about, we live in such a great country that no matter what you do, whether

you're an alcoholic, you have a drug problem, no matter what it is, you can change your life. Because we live in a great country where people give you the opportunity to get a second,

third, sometimes fourth chance to turn your life around. So, when I look at age 69, I look back on my life, I'm not fascinated by the things I did between 16 and 21 as most people are,

I am absolutely truly amazed every day of my life that I did those things, I went to prison, paid my debt, and where my life ended up. I've been married to my one and only wife for 40

plus years. I've brought three sons into the world, the one who is an FBI agent. I mean how amazing it is for me to have a son become an FBI agent. [00:20:47] HOST: For people who

didn't know that, yes. [00:20:49] Frank Abagnale: Yeah, those, those are the things that every day I have to wake up and say, I get to work for a great organization like AARP. My

clients like Lexus Nexus, Experian, working with the FBI. Who would have ever believed that was possible if you had said to me sitting in that jail today, one day you'll be doing this?

You know, and so it says a lot about our country. It also says a lot about that the world does not judge you on what your father's mistakes were or someone else's mistakes, so they

judge my son only on my son, not on me. [00:21:22] HOST: Well, from dating scams to getting second chances in life, your story is amazing. We're lucky to have you on the show.

[00:21:29] Frank Abagnale: Glad to be here. [00:21:30] HOST: One more thing about her story we'll go back to is that, and it was an interesting element. It was at the store where she

was getting money actually said don't send any more money. Do you hear about this sometimes? [00:21:38] Frank Abagnale: Yeah, you know, years ago, going back now 35 years ago, when I

used to work with banks, it was mainly me training bank tellers. Now mostly it's talking to their corporate customers, but years ago I used to tell tellers, "If I come in and tell

you that I need to withdraw $5,000 cash, and I'm an elderly person, you need to question that person, and say, 'Look, I don't want to get personal, but did anyone approach you

and tell you this?'" It used to be a very popular scam back 35 years ago where they would see an elderly person go into a bank or a savings bank and they would then follow that

person home, and a few minutes later there would be a knock on their door and two nice gentlemen dressed in a suit would identify themselves as secret service agents. And they'd say,

"We need your help." And then they'd come in, they'd sit down, and they'd say, "We believe that one of the tellers at your bank is stealing money, and we need

to catch her, and we need your help. So we would like you to go to the bank and withdraw $5,000 in cash and then bring it back to the apartment." [00:22:38] HOST: Get out, that's

crazy. [00:22:39] Frank Abagnale: "We're going to mark the money, and then we're going to give you the money back so that you can bring it back and put it in the bank, so we

can catch the teller red-handed." You don't know how many thousands of people fell for that scam, so you would say to the teller, if somebody came in, you just said I don't

want to get nosy, so I think more and more today, certainly AARP is working with banks and financial institutions to let them know about these scams so that they can step forward and say,

are you sure nobody approached you, because then the lightbulb goes on and the person's going to say, oh yeah, that's exactly what happened. Well then that's a scam.

They're just trying to get your money. So Walmart obviously is training their people very well because, and I think that's great. [00:23:19] HOST: Dating sites. I mean anybody can

get on a dating site and put themselves in however they want to, right? There's not, is there a lot of verification going on? [00:23:26] Frank Abagnale: I think if I was, if I was

someone who wanted to go through a dating site, I would absolutely make sure that was a very legitimate dating site, where the dating site, that company checks the people out who actually

want to be on their site. They verify that they're a real person, that's their real name, they do currently live at this address, they are currently employed at this place, so that

at least you have the security that they've done some background checks so that the person they're hooking you up with at least someone has established who they am. If

they're not doing that, I wouldn't be doing business with that dating site. [00:23:57] HOST: So don't go onto dating sites that specialize in guys who work in mines in other

parts of the world, and need your money. [00:24:03] Frank Abagnale: Go on dating sites where someone has them verified who they're putting you in touch with. [00:24:07] HOST:

Absolutely. Alright, Frank Abagnale, thank you once again for being here, taking about dating and romance scams, and you know, one thing we didn't talk about was trusting photos online.

Anybody can go to a dating site and put a photo of somebody, right, that's not them. [00:24:19] Frank Abagnale: Photos are everywhere, like on LinkedIn or Facebook or social media

sites and people can take those photos because that's a digital image of you, put it on a passport, put it on an identification, or on a dating site and saying I'm this person, and

it'd be very impressive to the person who thinks they're dating that individual. There are a lot of photos that are used and manipulated, that's why I always tell people that

are on Facebook and social media, don't put straight on photographs of yourself that are easily taken and then transferred somewhere, somewhere else. [00:24:52] HOST: Got it, okay,

that's good to know and if it looks like somebody in really good lighting in an office setting, don't trust that one either, because it's probably a stock photo. [00:25:00]

Frank Abagnale: Exactly. [00:25:02] HOST: And also, along the lines of photos and the technology of it, are we able then also to reverse that equation in that we can take images and search

online, or is that kind of a black hole. [00:25:12] Frank Abagnale: No, there are two technologies out there now. One is called Pitt-Patt. That was actually developed by MIT but it is owned

by Google, and it is a facial recognition tool tied back to Facebook, so if you have your picture on Facebook, and I snap a photo of you, it'll search all the Facebook pages around the

world till it comes up to a match of that person on Facebook. The Russians have even a better, faster technology called Fine Face, and it is available in the U.S. [00:25:42] HOST: These are

the good guys using this technology or the bad guys? [00:25:19] Frank Abagnale: It's both, so a lot of bad guys use it basically because if I see you in the airport and I snap a

photograph of you, and it takes me to your Facebook page, and on your Facebook page you happen to tell me where you were born and your date of birth, I'm 98 percent of stealing your

identity. [00:26:00] HOST: Wow. [00:25:19] Frank Abagnale: Yeah, it is amazing. [00:26:02] HOST: Wow, that's scary. [00:26:05] HOST: In keeping with our topic today of romance scams, we

have Jen Beam from the Fraud Watch Network. She manages the Fraud Watch Network Facebook page. Jen, thanks for being here. [00:26:14] Jen Beam: Thanks for having me. [00:26:15] HOST:

Alright, so romance scams. You guys hear about them a lot on the, with your Facebook community, right? Can you tell us about it? [00:26:21] Jen Beam: We do. What we hear most is sort of two

different things. So often, we will get folks who reach out, sort of just before, so potential scammers will reach them and they'll send us, you know, hey, does this person look legit,

you know, and they'll send us a Facebook profile and we can you know, usually it's pretty clear it's a scam. The other which is more common is that we hear from friends and

family reaching out who are just absolutely at their wit's end trying to reach someone who has been victimized. One of the hardest exchanges that I've gotten is a really close

friend; her best friend had fallen for this scammer, it was the classic story, you know, she met this guy on a dating sight, they quickly switched to text, it was a guy who happened to be

across the country, he traveled a lot, and it really hit all the markers of the classic romance scam, but this friend followed the warning signs, could not break through, and so you know we

were in the position trying to advise this woman, you know, what she could share with her you know the friend that was being victimized, and ultimately we were able to connect her with our

Fraud Watch Network Helpline. And so, what's nice about that is we have trained volunteers who actually make outgoing calls too, so they were able to call just to try to be an outside

source because sometimes you know people don't want to hear it from their friends and family. [00:27:48] HOST: So, no matter how much you might like somebody from their photo, or their

messages, or their texts, you know, as Frank said, if you’re not going to have coffee with somebody, then don't send them money. Like, you know, if you haven't done that yet, you

know there's no reason to share money with them. [00:28:04] Jen Beam: It's a very good point. [00:27:59] HOST: Jen Beam with the Fraud Watch Network. Thanks, as always, for your

valuable advice. Where can people find the Facebook page? [00:28:12] Jen Beam: They can find it at Facebook.com/fraudwatchnetwork. [00:28:15] HOST: Alright, Jen, thanks a lot. [00:28:16] Jen

Beam: Thanks, Will. [00:28:18] HOST: Alright, stay safe out there. Don't click on any links you don't know. Don't pick up that phone if you don't know the phone number,

and I'll be back next with AARP's Fraud Watch Network. Ambassador Frank Abagnale. [00:28:29] Frank Abagnale: Thank you. [00:28:30] HOST: Thanks a lot. [00:28:27] HOST: For more

information and resources on how to protect yourself from becoming a victim of a scam, visit AARP's Fraud Watch Network website, AARP.org/fraudwatchnetwork. [00:28:41] HOST: Alright,

many thanks to our producers Julie Getz and Brook Ellis; our audio engineer, Julio Gonzales, and of course, my cohost Frank Abagnale. For The Perfect Scam, I'm Will Johnson. Be sure to

subscribe, download, rate, and of course, please like our podcast on Apple Podcast or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. END OF TRANSCRIPT