Reader TTS

(MUSIC INTRO) [00:00:02] Bob: Hollywood actor and director Josh Margolin has a very wonderful relationship with his grandmother, Thelma, his 104-year-old grandmother Thelma. So a few years

ago when Thelma was the target of a grandparent scam, well Josh took it to heart especially because the criminal pretended to be Josh. Said he'd been in a car accident and needed money.

So Josh turned the experience into an award-winning movie called, "Thelma." And the movie recently won an AARP Movies for Grownups Award as The Best Intergenerational Movie. In

the film it's fiction but based very much on the real Thelma's experience. Thelma, played by June Squibb, is manipulated into sending money to a criminal who pretends to be her

grandson named Daniel, that's really Josh in real life. Then after Thelma discovers it's a crime, she enlists an old friend and his fancy mobility scooter in a secret zany effort

to catch the criminals and get her money back. Anyone who's ever been a crime victim is rooting for Thelma and that scooter I can tell you. Here today to discuss his film, his

grandmother, and the emotional impact of scams, is Josh Margolin. (MUSIC SEGUE) [00:01:17] Bob: I just fell in love with this movie. It was fantastic. The best compliment I can give you, I

think on The Perfect Scam here, we try to do something a little similar to what you did in the movie. We, instead of doing a story about a crime, we do stories about victims and try to get

you to know each victim. We do this once a week, but you did such a great... I fell in love with Thelma in 10 seconds. [00:01:37] Josh Margolin: Oh, thank you so much. [00:01:39] Bob: And oh

no, the whole thing is so warm. The grandson is such a great character, but what I really want to talk to you about is the, what we try to do on the podcast is educate people about why

these scams work so well, and why blaming people is such a terrible thing and how these moments occur. And again, you crystalized that so well. How, why did you approach this subject with

such tenderness the way you did? [00:02:01] Josh Margolin: I think because it happened to my grandma in real life who is someone, you know, I've always been incredibly close to and felt

very connected to, very in awe of throughout most of my life. And when this scam incident occurred in real life, she was so thrown. There, there was something so upsetting about it because

she was just, I wasn't used to seeing her in that state. There, there had obviously been ups and downs and emergencies and what life throws at you, but something about the kind of

randomness of it and the cruelty of it and the way in which it really spun her out as she was living alone in her 90s after the death of her husband, my grandpa, something about the

confluence of factors just really, really struck me and stayed with me and I ended up writing the movie in the wake of that incident and the feelings it left me with. But I think because of

how it unfolded and who it happened to and the way I experienced it as her grandson, and also as the person who was invoked in the scam, which added a little bit of a weird layer for me of

just feeling icky about that, I just sort of started approaching it from there and that's how it came out. [00:03:12] Bob: And let me just be clear, thankfully your grandmother in the

end didn't send any money, but it still hurt her this much. [00:03:18] Josh Margolin: Exactly. Luckily in real life, exactly, and that's without even the true financial hit that,

that many of these come with. But she, yeah, she, it got pretty close but luckily in our case, we were able--, my family basically was able to get in touch with me before she actually sent

the money. But it was a close call and it was a, kind of a, it took a minute and it was a whole undertaking. But yes, luckily, she didn't end up actually sending it. [00:03:42] Bob: And

like in the movie, several family members were roped into the story. [00:03:47] (clip) Gail, something has happened! Mom, wait-wait-wait. Slow down. Who did you talk to? Daniel. Oh Gail, he

was so upset. He was so upset. I am calling him right now. Oh my God, he's not picking up. Oh my God. I'll try the house line. Oh my God, uh Mom, Allen is calling. What? Allen is

calling. I'll call you back. What's going on? My mother had a call from Daniel. And he's in jail, and someone broke his nose. Who told her that? She spoke to him and I tried

calling and I can't get him. And he's not picking up his phone? No, I'm trying again. Okay, I'm getting in the car. Let me know what you hear. [00:04:36] Josh Margolin:

Yeah? Exactly, my parents got convinced. I think that was strange in some ways to me too but I think it's because she was, she was so adamant about it. And she had gotten calls like

that in the past, but for whatever reason those hadn't managed to pull it off. She had picked up on what was going on. But for whatever reason, I don't know if it was the day or

the moment or who knows, this one just spun her out and she was so convinced it was me that my parents got convinced it was me, and when they couldn't reach me, that kind of just

reinforced this, this fear. And then luckily, they were able to reach my girlfriend who was awake before me. I was sleeping. I was true to form, um, and everything. We were able to resolve

it. But it did yeah, spread throughout the family first. [00:05:18] Bob: And just to make sure that I hear you say this, your real-life grandmother's name... [00:05:21] Josh Margolin:

Is Thelma. [00:05:23] Bob: So this movie's for her. [00:05:24] Josh Margolin: This movie's for her, yeah. It's very much pulled from her life and even, obviously there's

much that is imagined, but it is, it is very much for her and based on her, and a lot of the character, even in fictionalized situations, the character is very true to her and her life and

the details of her life. [00:05:41] Bob: And I want to dwell on this for just one more minute because, of course, we talk about people who have had hundreds of thousands of dollars stolen

from them and some of these stories are so tragic, but there are, is this other layer of victims of people who are just put through this emotional distress for no reason like your

grandmother, right? [00:05:57] Josh Margolin: Yeah, and it's, I, it's obviously with the actual financial loss, it's unimaginable, but e--, even without it, it definitely

created kind of a, a moment I think for her that shook her sense of self and her trust in her ability to navigate her life which did definitely ripple into the years after the incident.

[00:06:21] Bob: Now you do another just an amazing job in the movie of portraying a moment that is really critical in a lot of these stories that we hear, which is the victims don't

want to come forward because they're afraid if they come forward, they might ultimately have their independence taken from them. [00:06:35] (Clip) Mom, did you really think it was

Daniel? And how did you think this was real? Mom, you thought it was real too. Well she was very convincing. Well she was scared, your mother, we were all scared. I wasn't quite as

scared, just for the record. We'll see what happens when you get a call, buddy. I wouldn't be fooled. My mind is sharp as a tack. What? I said I wouldn't be fooled. My mind is

sharp as a tack. What's he saying? He's making a joke. Do you want to try again? What's the joke, Allen? There was no joke. Never mind. Well, you know, it was a close call,

but it's over now. Everything's okay. I am so embarrassed. No... don't be. [00:07:13] Josh Margolin: Exactly, yeah, that was really, I think that was as a big part of what

shook her up and she did continue to live by herself for a bit after that, but I do think it to me at least signaled kind of the beginning of this, this phase where things were a little bit,

we were kind of keeping a closer eye and things were feeling a little bit dicier just whether that was fair or not at the time, I think it just naturally provoked that reaction in us. And I

think, yeah, exactly, my grandma definitely had a lot of shame around it, and I think e--, even to the point where over the years, I think the story has changed in her mind a little bit.

She's 104 now, and she's living with my parents now. [00:07:49] Bob: God bless her, that is amazing. [00:07:50] Josh Margolin: It's crazy. She's really, she's been

going strong which is amazing, but she's been with them ever since COVID, so ever, basically a little before she turned 100, she was living alone until she was like 99, which is wild.

And then she, yeah, moved in with my folks and then has been there ever since. [00:08:05] Bob: What did she think of the movie? [00:08:07] Josh Margolin: She fortunately, she liked the

movie. It would have been very; it would have been a real bummer if she... [00:08:13] Bob: I'm picturing a scary moment when you sit with her and watch it. [00:08:16] Josh Margolin:

Yes, there, it was definitely scary. I luckily had tried to share as much of it with her along the way as I could and got her blessing at a time when I'm not sure she believed it would

actually happen. 'Cause I think she was like, oh, you're making a movie out of this? I don't know where it's going to go 'cause there's not a lot there. And I

was like I think there's something there. So she was dubious of there being enough of a story there. And I guess if I had totally stuck to reality, maybe there wouldn't have been,

but it, it definitely inspired me. [00:08:42] Bob: Did you think much about scams before this experience? [00:08:45] Josh Margolin: Not really. Not, I'd, you'd hear about something

that would make its way to the news or I would be interested in a given story here and there, but I don't think the concept of scams was as front of mind for me as it became in the

wake of this. [00:08:59] Bob: It's obvious that you did a lot of research in the script and you acquired the sensibility that those of us in the scam space have, which is I think is

really impressive. What did you do to prep for the script? [00:09:10] Josh Margolin: I did a lot of, honestly, I talked to my grandma a lot, um, which I was doing already fortunately, but

this was a good excuse to yeah, just sit with her and talk through the experience again. I think I; I recorded her at one point. I had been making these little documentaries about her over

the years, just little going to Costco, working, helping her with her emails. Just little moments in her life in her 90s... [00:09:30] Bob: And they're on Instagram a lot of them,

right? [00:09:32] Josh Margolin: Yeah, they are. They have, they're on a website called "withthelma.com" where they're all housed, and I think some of them are on

Instagram as well. But yeah, they're calling them documentaries is almost an oversell, but they were, yeah, these little, short, these little videos that I was making as she was living

alone at that time. And I was, I basically had the opportunity to just really continue that and talk to her a lot about the experience and what happened and drill down and just make sure I

really understood the, the feeling and also the escalation of it, and how it got its hooks into her so to speak. And then, from there, I've long been a fan of action movies, and I think

a lot of those tropes and a lot of those, the kind of DNA of that was very much in my head and has been engrained in me, and so I really, a, a big part of the challenge, but also the fun of

writing this was finding the way that those tropes or those touchstones could be shrunk down to the every day, and explored through the lens of this 93-year-old woman clinging onto her

autonomy and doing things that although they are less outwardly dramatic than maybe like Tom Cruise jumping out of a plane, for her they are incredibly high stakes because as you get more

vulnerable moving through the world becomes more dangerous, and just really trying to lean into that and find the kind of alchemy of that was what really excited me about exploring this idea

through that lens. And then on the scam front, I also just would listen to, I would listen to as many podcasts as I could, and read articles of just about scams like this and make sure that

I was both honoring her experience, but trying to stay true to what, what sounds like it's a pretty consistent experience, especially with the grandparent scam, which I suppose this

would fall under. [00:11:03] Bob: But you did a great job at the scene where the scam was revealed to the family. So we harp all the time on this podcast about the problem of victim blaming

language. It's only natural to say, "How could you?" to someone, but also, that does no good, and, and it often is, again, it's an incentive. We always talk about this.

It, it helps the criminals because it's an incentive for people to stay quiet. Where did you get that sensibility from? [00:11:26] Josh Margolin: I think I felt, honestly, I think I

felt it in myself. It, it's so easy to get scared and get frustrated. Because you care about this person and you want them to be safe and not get roped into things like this, but and

it's of course not their fault, but I think I definitely pulled on a feeling that I had in my own family, in my own self of just like the instinct to want to be like, how could this

happen? Like how could you think this was me, like just I, quick to getting frustrated because it perked up such a fear in me, and I think in everybody who had just been both amazed at the

fact that she was able to keep living alone, but also took it almost as a, of course, like she's, if anyone can do it, she can into this decade. And so I think there was something about

it that kind of burst that bubble for me and the family in some way, and so I think that naturally brought out a feeling of like, just not wanting that to be the case, and it, it just felt

really easy to go there. And so I think I tried to just tap into that feeling that I, I wish I didn't have, or I wish I hadn't had, and then working through that by writing it into

the movie, and then imagining also the experience of her feeling the shame that I know she felt regarding that incident and how that kind of shook her sense of self. And I think if she had

really sent the money, I wonder if she would have told us, because she hadn't, obviously we were able to talk about it more, more readily, but I do wonder in real life if she had sent

it, if we would have known for a minute. 'Cause I, I wouldn't be surprised if she would have tried to keep that to herself to, to mitigate the, that feeling. [00:12:59] Bob: So

I'm working on a script right now about a woman who had, was a victim of a romance scam, and her family did not find out until she died, and they found the paperwork in among with her

will and everything, and they realized she had sent hundreds of thousands of dollars to a criminal and worked with federal prosecutors but kept the whole thing a secret from her kids which

to me, that sounds like just an unimaginable pain and loneliness to not tell your kids. [00:13:22] Josh Margolin: Yeah, the prison of that shame is just, it feels so real and so heavy.

[00:13:27] Bob: Yeah, yeah. So did you learn anything about the way scams work during the movie? [00:13:32] Josh Margolin: It's funny. I think, I'm sure I learned a bit, I must

have learned something, I hope. But I feel like I was relatively narrow in my, in, in the kind of thing I was investigating, especially because I realized that in real life if I were

treating it with a fully, and you tell me if this is wrong or right because this was my impression at least, but if I were treating it with true realism and not using it also as a metaphor

to explore this other thing with this character. I feel like once you've sent that money, it's almost impossible to get it back. Is that right, that more often than not once

it's sent there's almost no way. [00:14:04] Bob: Yeah, there, there are occasional unicorn stories, but for the most part the money's gone. [00:14:08] Josh Margolin: Yeah,

which is obviously very depressing and sad if that's the case. But it makes... [00:14:13] Bob: And for some people it's absolutely lifechanging. It's almost everything they

have. [00:14:18] Josh Margolin: Ooh, it really is. It's horrible, because it's so easy to just make a phone--, it feels like the ability to enter somebody's life has become so

easy, especially for people who aren't guarded, or aren't armed with the tools to know what's happening initially. And I'm sure we're all going to be that soon

enough because everything is moving so quickly, but it just is really, something about the ease with which you can just enter someone's life and then change it so profoundly is

upsetting. [00:14:42] Bob: Since we've gone to that dark place, that's something I'm really excited to ask you about because you, another interview I read where you said

basically there could have been another script that ended up in that dark place, but instead, you made this empowering movie. Can you talk about that? [00:14:57] Josh Margolin: Yeah. I think

for me the scam, what the scam really did at least was, as I was mentioning in my life is that it pricked up this awareness I think of her fragility and an inevitable decline that we all

have to go through as humans. But I think it's something that I had been afraid to face with her, because she had always been so steady, even through illnesses and the rest. Somehow, I

don't know if it was just the age I was at or my level of awareness, or her brave face, or however that played out, but I just had always found her unflappable and I think what the scam

did is highlight the way in which she's human. And to me, what I ended up wanting to do was finding a way to celebrate the person she is, her grit and her spirit and her tenacity and

these things I really admired in her. And, and also reckon with the questions of her autonomy and aging and death and loss and all those things that were on my mind as well. So to me, maybe

it is the love of kind of action movies or whatever that might be that, that affects them for the genre of kind of somebody going and getting what's theirs, I just felt like I wanted

her, I wanted to use this as a way to explore those things, but I also wanted the character to have some catharsis. Because I knew that in life also that is so rare with this particular

event that so now, I'm marrying it to some of those genre elements and then exploring it through that lens. It just felt like it wouldn't, I don't know, it felt like it, it

was something I wanted her to be able to pull off, and I wanted the movie to beat the odds in that way and be a place where maybe people who have experienced stuff like this can reckon with

those themes and the kind of heavier stuff that does come up when someone's faced with this, but also find some catharsis in this character beating the odds and finding a way to get it

back while also realizing she has to, she can't actually totally do it on her own either, and that balance was important to me too in, in that character having to realize some

limitation while also still bucking the odds. [00:16:55] Bob: Having that moment. Did, no one who has been a victim of a criminal like this isn't cheering, screaming, watching her

actually chase down her criminal, not that we want to encourage people to chase after criminals, we don't do that here. [00:17:08] Josh Margolin: Of course, yes. Disclaimer. [00:17:09]

Bob: But we do want to encourage people to have moments of where they, they bridge to the future out of this, where they reclaim some power somehow. Some of that, we hope, is appearing on

podcasts like this where they talk about their story and, and report the crime. And many people end up becoming victim advocates in one way or another after an experience like this. So

we're all about happy endings here. [00:17:31] Josh Margolin: That's amazing. No, that's such, it's so valuable, just people being able to have a place where they can

come and talk about it. Because I do, yeah, in some ways it almost might be easier to come to you than to your own family I could imagine. [00:17:41] Bob: Ultimately it is. I have those

conversations a lot and then sometimes we try to intercede. But AARP does, does a great job of it. There's a phone number that you can call if you're a victim, and they, they have

people to just listen, which is a phenomenal service. It's free. [00:17:53] Josh Margolin: That's a great resource, yeah. [00:17:54] Bob: It's not just for older people, yeah.

[00:17:56] Josh Margolin: That's amazing. [00:17:56] Bob: Can you talk about the reception for the movie? What did you feel, and I'm wondering in particular if you heard from

other victims of scams? [00:18:03] Josh Margolin: That was probably the craziest part was that I feel like almost every screening we did, almost every event we did, someone, if not multiple

people would come up saying that they had this experience, or their parent had this experience, their grandparent. So that I think that's what really struck me is I knew that this was a

relatively widespread phenomenon or at least intellectually I knew that, but I don't think I really accounted for how many people were touched by that, almost that exact event. Like

really beat for beat. Other scams as well, but also just even specifically that scam, the grand--, grandchild with the broken nose who got in a car, like it, it was really shocking to me how

many people had a very similar story. And that was really... [00:18:45] Bob: And even right down to the broken nose, right? [00:18:46] Josh Margolin: Yeah, exactly, down to just a way to

justify the fact that the voice sounds a little different. All of those details were ironed out and it seemed like it really was just like a playbook that was run and run again and again and

so it was really interesting to get to talk to people who had similar experiences and hear the spectrum of people who hadn't sent the money, who had sent the money, who had sent a

little bit, or who had sent a lot, and it definitely made me at least feel, feel good to give them this piece of hopefully cathartic entertainment and also someone to talk to about it,

because it was definitely a topic of conversation that came up a lot, and that felt kind of bonding to be able to be like, oh yeah, this happened to me, or this happened to a loved one of

mine, and just being able to have those conversations more easily and to acknowledge the prevalence of this felt good and felt kind of connective, especially because I do really think

it's going to, as AI and all these things rapidly become more and more insidious, it feels like the, a thing that once felt really like it only could prey on the most vulnerable, so I

think just the practice of getting to talk to people about it is so wonderful, and was a part of that release in that tour that I didn't really, I didn't anticipate to the extent

that it happened. [00:19:54] Bob: The wonderful thing that fiction does for us, is it gives us a language to talk about things with. So it's easier if you can say, remember that thing

that happened to Thelma? It happened to me too, so that's a great service that you've done there. Is, is there a story, a person who came up to you, you don't have to retell

the whole thing, but anything that really stuck with you? [00:20:13] Josh Margolin: That's a good question. I'm trying to remember if there was one that was really stuck in my

mind. Honestly, the, when I try to recall, it, what struck me even more was just how similar they all were as opposed to one of them being like particularly outrageous or dramatic. It's

like they all, so many of them, at least in the ones that I was told about, felt the same. Which is another reason why I think it is, I wish people would talk more about it because it feels

like it's, it's not only a common experience, but in so many ways it's almost the exact same experience in terms of the, not in the minutiae necessarily of the person's

life, but just in the scam itself and that the beat for beat in the ways you get hooked in. [00:20:53] Bob: You've hit on something that I think is really important. I've been

writing technology scam stories for 25 years, and something has me very nervous over the last even 12 to 24 months which is what feels to me like you're saying is the industrial scale

of this. [00:21:07] Josh Margolin: Yeah. [00:21:08] Bob: Like clearly if you're hearing the same story over and over again, as do I, that means this is mass-produced now. And

that's scary for me how effective they are and how, how finely tuned the stories are, and how repetitive they are. It's like they're making the Toyota Corolla of scams here.

[00:21:24] Josh Margolin: Yeah. No, seriously, it does really feel like it's such a, such a well-oiled machine and that is alarming, because it does feel like that ability to have it

down pat is, just makes it easier to run it back again and again. [00:21:37] Bob: Is there anything that didn't make it into the movie that you wish did, either a scene, a character, or

even just a notion, a theme? [00:21:45] Josh Margolin: Oh, that's a good question, too. It's interesting, my, and this is maybe just more of a movie comment, but I, my, I have a

younger sister who is not featured in the movie, which a part of me was like, oh, it would have been nice to put Nat in the movie. But I couldn't figure out where to put that character

just because I think she was in New York at the time and, and lives in New York currently, and obviously is just as close to my grandma as I am, and is a huge part of the fabric of our

family. But because of the nature of the way this unfolded and the needs of the movie, it just didn't end up making sense to have another, another member of the family. You know what, I

wish I'd, in another version, I would have found a way to work my sister in. [00:22:24] Bob: Film scripts are notorious for cutting out family members. [00:22:26] Josh Margolin: You

just sometimes you got to pull from reality, but then shape it to the needs of the thing, and that's where, that's where family members get cut. [00:22:34] Bob: They have to

understand, there's no time to develop all of these people, I know. [00:22:37] Josh Margolin: Yes, exactly and... [00:22:38] Bob: But what was her role in, in the real-life story?

[00:22:40] Josh Margolin: I think just again, a support system. She was someone who we were talking to and she wasn't part of the, she didn't get fooled in the same way because she

wasn't part of that initial rollout there, but we're both just very close to my grandma and always very around and in conversation with her and talking things through with her and

very present in her life. So she would have been the, almost a duplicate of the Daniel character, and probably, you know what, I would say probably even a little more patient. [00:23:06]

Bob: (laughs) I love that she appears in the movie at the end. Can you talk about that little mini-documentary, why what your mom's saying, or your grandmother is saying is so

important? [00:23:15] Josh Margolin: Oh yeah, so there's this little clip at the end where she's marveling at these old trees, that, that my grandma always would marvel at.

[00:23:24] (clip) Look at all those, look at all those bottoms of those trees. Look, look, they're, how gnarled they are and yet they live. Look. Look! Look at photographs of this. Is

this unbelievable? I mean it's unbelievable. Look at this. This thing is still living. Look. This tree? Yeah, look at it. It should be down on the, I mean it's unbelievable.

It's crazy. What spirit. Look, look! Ah. (chuckles) [00:23:50] Josh Margolin: It's like she's somebody who I think even at, in her old age and even in her, yeah into her 90s

could look at the world occasionally and just be like, wow. What is that? Like how does that happen? How does that work? Isn't that something? And I think that quality of being able to

still find awe in things, while also having really lived a life and gone through things and not been spared difficulties by any means, is something I just really admire in her and I think

something that just speaks to her spirit. And in that clip, she's literally talking about the trees, and she's, at the end of it she says, "What spirit." And I always

just felt like she was not consciously, but to me it felt like she was, she could be talking about herself. And I always really loved that clip. I, and I never knew what to do with it. I

never could, it never quite fit into one of these little documentaries I was making. I just couldn't, I couldn't tie it to anything. It almost felt too all-encompassing or

something, or it summed something up that was bigger than going to Costco or going on a trip or whatever the subject of that little doc was. And as I was writing the movie, I was thinking

about it and I was like, you know what, I am, I am just going to put it in the movie and not even the clip itself, but just the scene. I'm going to, I'm going to pull that dialog

word for word, and I'm going to put it at the end of the movie. And so there's a scene in the movie where she is doing that real dialog. June is in the car with Fred, word for

word, looking out at these trees. And then I realized as we were putting it together and cutting it, I was like, you know what, I have this clip, like maybe it would be really nice after

this whole journey and after things, after the caper of it unfolds and the movie does its thing, it might be fun to remind everybody to bring us back down to earth a little, to bring us back

down to the heart of it and remind us that this is also based on this real person. And I ended up putting the clip in the credits and it was just, I'm so glad I did because it's

always really nice to watch an audience. Some people might know it's based on a real person, a lot of people probably don't, and there's something really nice about people

just seeing my real grandma at the end and connecting the dots there and getting to just get to see her for a moment and then hopefully maybe in some small way in the way I see her which I

think that clip kind of encompasses. [00:25:57] Bob: I'm also, I'm calling you out for cheating at this point. You have a grandmother who write dialog for you. That's not

fair. [00:26:02] Josh Margolin: I know. I was nervous about that. I was like this; I think she might have written the best scene. [00:26:08] Bob: (chuckles) It is a very beautiful sentiment

too. What I took from it is she's talking about these gnarly roots down here, but look at this beautiful tree that's still standing that's, what a great thing to say about a

life. [00:26:17] Josh Margolin: Yeah. Just amazed that this thing is still living is what she just, she, the tree she was looking at, I don't know if you are in Los Angeles, but

there's these trees on the street San Vicente that have been there forever and there's like this middle stretch of the street where it's just this row of trees and she used to

live close to there, and so she would always marvel at the look of them and be like, look at them. They look, yeah, they're so gnarled and twisted up, but they're still standing.

And that was, I thought that also was, yeah, just a beautiful way to marvel at something and I, I, I was like, it's got to go in. Got to get it in there. [00:26:49] Bob: Thelma, as I

mentioned, won an AARP Movies for Grownups Award earlier this year recognized as The Best Intergenerational Movie. [00:26:59] (clip) To accept the AARP's Movies for Grownups

Intergenerational Award on behalf of Thelma, please welcome June Squibb, and the actor who plays her grandson, Fred Hechinger. (applause) [00:27:12] Josh Margolin: It was very meaningful; it

was a surprise. Like I think the fact that there maybe aren't as many movies as one would think that portray sort of a friendship or a close relationship between people who are so many

generations apart was something that I hadn't thought about super consciously when making the movie, 'cause the movie's the movie and the relationship is the relationship,

but there was something really lovely and wonderful about that kind of being recognized, and highlighting the fact that it is a truly an intergenerational movie. It, there's characters

who are spread across the generations and I think the, and that the heart of the movie being the relationship between sort of grandparent and grandchild was, it just was very cool to, to

have the movie honored in that way, and June and Fred Hechinger got to accept the award and it was just very, it, it was, it felt very full circle and very sweet to see them accepting it

together and... [00:28:04] Bob: You know grandson/grandma relationships seems like such fertile ground, but yet as I sit here, I can't think of too many movies that explore that option.

I mean, kudos to you for making such a meaningful movie and such an important relationship. [00:28:14] Josh Margolin: Oh, thank you. Yeah, it, I hadn't, exactly, I hadn't thought

of it in those terms until I made it, and then I was like, oh yeah, I guess there aren't that many movies where that's the center of the thing, where that's the heart of it.

[00:28:25] Bob: It's immediately charming, right? Who doesn't love a grandparent relationship. That's, it's interesting. More movies should explore that theme. [00:28:31]

Josh Margolin: I think so too. I hope this cracks open a genre here. [00:28:34] Bob: Okay, what do you want our listeners to take away from the movie and from what you learned making the

movie? [00:28:40] Josh Margolin: I hope people who've gone through things like this take away some feeling of catharsis and some reminder of perhaps the spirit of the strength of the

people who have gone through it, and that this event is not necessarily a, they can feel like a defining one and maybe in some cases it's more so or less, but I do think that, I hope

there's some joy at least in the catharsis of watching somebody buck the odds there a little bit. And on top of that I hope it makes people think a little bit about how they view the

people in their lives who have gone through things like that, and how it's very easy also to quickly want to do the thing that in your mind it makes them the safest or protects them as,

as swiftly and as, as fully as possible. Not always with the consideration of what, you know, their needs are and what their, what moment in life they're in. At least for me I know

that was an impulse... okay, now that this has happened, oh God, like we just, how do we prevent this from happening and how do we do that at any cost. And I think that is a tempting impulse

to just be like, how do I protect this person no matter what after something like that happens. But I do think there is some, there's, it's a fine line and that there is some

acceptance to be found, hopefully, in the idea that you can't fully protect somebody from life. I also hope it will make people think about maybe how they react when these things happen

to people. Because I know for me, there was an impulse to just protect at all costs and be like, whatever we have to do to make sure something like this doesn't happen, or there's

no risk of this, but I think there's sadly always some risk and I think finding that balance and finding that acceptance, and finding that, that, I think it's a delicate balance

between doing what you can to care for somebody, and also like letting their, letting them still be who they are and giving them enough autonomy to be that, until it really becomes a, a

matter of safety and whatnot. But I hope people think on that balance and maybe also think on their own reactions to stuff like this, because I know it's made me think a lot about that

because I think I bring a lot of my own... the Daniel character is so torn between kind of his own anxiety about what will keep his grandma safe and also realizing that there are limits to

the things he had do to protect her. [00:30:47] Bob: It's such a hard balance. When, you know if a child falls down, skins their knee, you want them to be safe. But you can't put

them in bubble wrap. [00:30:53] Josh Margolin: Exactly. It feels like an impossible balance but one that I know, even striving for, feels admirable. [00:30:59] Bob: I also feel like for

heaven's sake, it's okay to make mistakes. Just because they're an older person doesn't mean a mistake should end your life somehow. [00:31:06] Josh Margolin: Yeah,

exactly. I think that's a great way of putting it, 'cause I think that is the, that's probably what it feels like to a lot of people who go through it, and then also probably

is reinforced by the, the judgment or the fear that is then perceived as judgment that a family can have. [00:31:19] Bob: We're almost out of time, but I have to ask you this question.

June was amazing, and it must have been amazing to try to bring your grandmother to life through another person. What was that like? [00:31:28] Josh Margolin: It was amazing. It was really

surreal and strange, but also really fantastic. I think if it, I don't know who it would have been if it wasn't her. I'd always wanted it to be June. I always had my heart set

on June. It was hard enough in my mind to imagine somebody playing her and then June was really the only person that I got excited about, and I was like, wow, she would be incredible.

There, there's something inherently similar about them. I think they're both like very independent and tough, but funny and thoughtful and just there's, there's some mix

of qualities there that just felt really right. And I thank God June said yes and came onboard, and she was the first party to do, so she was a part of the movie in its DNA from pretty early

on. And it was amazing. I, I never wanted her to feel like she had to do like an impression of my grandma or anything, I just wanted her to find her own version of that character and what

was so lovely was, I think that's what drew her to it and it wasn't a, it was a, a huge leap from who she is. And that combined with her being just an amazing actor was really

special to watch, and I just felt very lucky to have her and really don't know how the movie would have worked without her. She's the heart and soul of it, and very much the, yeah,

the avatar that I, the avatar for the real Thelma that I don't know that anyone else could have, could have been. [00:32:46] Bob: Josh, thank you so much for speaking with _The Perfect

Scam_. [00:32:49] Josh Margolin: Thank you so much. This has been great. I'm so happy to be talking to you and I'm a fan of the podcast, and I really appreciate you, you having me

on and watching the movie and, and getting the chance to talk about all this. (MUSIC SEGUE) [00:33:02] Bob: If you have been targeted by a scam or fraud, you are not alone. Call the AARP

Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is:

[email protected], and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their story, write to us.

That address again is: [email protected]. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree; Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and

our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob

Sullivan. (MUSIC OUTRO) _END OF TRANSCRIPT_