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(MUSIC INTRO) [00:00:02] Bob: This week on The Perfect Scam. [00:00:05] David Herron: My mom expressed to me what that home meant to her and she expressed to me - try to keep this house.

[00:00:14] Juliet Sorensen: Once the original victim is no longer living, if they want to sell the house, it's also now encumbered by a reverse mortgage. So regardless of whether or not

you want to keep it as a family home for generations or sell it, this scam hits you in the face out of the blue as the heir of the original victim. (MUSIC SEGUE) [00:00:38] Bob: Welcome

back to The Perfect Scam. I'm your host, Bob Sullivan. (MUSIC SEGUE) [00:00:43] Bob: Today's story starts with one of the greatest college football performances you'll ever

hear about, a feat of amazing strength and perseverance. But it ends with dozens of families on Chicago's West Side desperately trying to save their homes through strength and

perseverance from foreclosure after the equity was stolen right out from under them by a criminal with a pen. How do these things connect? Well it's a heck of a story. We'll begin

with David Heron who lives on the West Side of Chicago in the home his mom, Effie, bought decades ago. He'll help us explain. [00:01:22] David Herron: My mom persevered and worked

several jobs. My mom obtained this property early '70s, right, and um, the, the previous, you know, we stayed on the block. We were on this, on the, uh on the block of 18th and

Haviland. And my mom uh, even though she worked out, she was like a, a, a kid. You got to understand during this time, the way we were raised and brought up in the area, neighbors looked

after neighbors, they looked after the children, and looked after even and so everybody on the block knew everybody. My mom took care of the lady; her name was Miss Brewer. Miss Brewer was

older than my mom, an elderly lady who was kind of sickly. But my mom would take care of her. And when uh she eventually passed and it, the particular property was left with her brother who

lived in Alabama, and he didn't want no part of the house, so my mom took it, took the house, took the home. And we was there since '70, 1970. [00:02:18] Bob: So she, she bought

the home then when this woman she was taking care of passed, right? [00:02:22] David Herron: Right, correct. [00:02:25] Bob: But despite working multiple jobs and having the inside track,

David's mom still doesn't have enough money herself to buy the home. But fortunately, her brother's son, Mack, is able to help. [00:02:39] David Herron: I had a brother that

for three or four years, had a career uh in the NFL. He played for the New England Patriots. [00:02:49] Bob: Wow. [00:02:49] David Herron: Well actually when he came out of college, he

graduated in '69. Came out of Kansas State, and he actually went to the Canadian League for a few years. [00:03:02] Bob: Mack, and he was small, so his nickname was Mini Mack, he

didn't have an easy road to the NFL back in the 1970s, but he did have an inside track because of that one remarkable day, October 25th, 1969, when powerhouse Oklahoma visited Kansas

State on homecoming. You just have to hear about it. [00:03:25] David Herron: He scored like six touchdowns. I'll never forget it. The whole family was there; it was their homecoming

game. And the coach that was uh, Oklahoma's coach was, was Chuck Fairbanks. When he took over the job in New England, he remembered my brother in the game that he had against Oklahoma,

and he kind of sent scouts out to the Canadian League and they, they eventually brought him uh, to New England. And this was during the time of OJ Simpson, Jim Plunkett, during that era, uh,

the early '70s. Yeah. [00:04:00] Bob: But you guys all went to the homecoming game and, and saw this in person. [00:04:03] David Herron: Absolutely. Yeah, my whole family was there;

mom, dad, sister, brothers, and aunts, and it was great. [00:04:09] Bob: Lookee... here I am. I was 59-21, Kansas State against Oklahoma. [00:04:12] David Herron: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:04:13] Bob: Wow. That must have been a hell of a day. [00:04:15] David Herron: Yeah, right. [00:04:17] Bob: Wow, and, and so if I were their coach, I would remember him from that day.

[00:04:20] David Herron: Right, right, absolutely, and that is kind of a funny story and the coach would tell that story after he recruited my brother to New England when he became the

coach, yeah. [00:04:33] Bob: Mini Mack had a couple of great years in the NFL. He led the league in all-purpose yardage one year. But well, his career only lasted a few years. [00:04:44]

Bob: So he made a little bit of money. I'm sure back then it wasn't like, it wasn't like today, right? [00:04:48] David Herron: Nothing like today, nothing like today.

[00:04:59] Bob: Yeah. [00:04:50] David Herron: But yeah, he did for that time and that era, yeah, he did alright. So he was able to do stuff to help my, my mom, my family. [00:04:59] Bob:

Including he helped buy this right, right? [00:05:01] David Herron: Yes. [00:05:02] Bob: Everyone's home is special, of course, but knowing what went into getting this little piece of

earth in the Herron family, well that just made it all the more special. [00:05:12] Bob: So you know I just, when people talk about a house, you know there's so much in it, right?

There's, there's birthday parties, there's weddings, there's funerals. Then there's stories like this that mean so much to you, right? [00:05:21] David Herron:

Absolutely. This is, like it has more of a meaning for me than just a house. Just a home, right? It's where my mom, one of her wishes were, and she told me that and she say, she always,

it was like a family home. We all, I had, we come, I come from a large family and I had five brothers and two sisters. [00:05:47] Bob: Oh boy. [00:05:48] David Herron: Right. [00:05:49]

Bob: That's a lot of wrestling. [00:05:50] David Herron: Yeah. My mom always had a place for, for her family. Even when we got older and went different ways and diff--, different routes

in life, we always had somewhere to go whether it be good, bad, something happened, you got sick or anything, and all of our children, all of my nieces and nephews and all of my children

grew up around this home. You know so it has more of a meaning too, it has a lot of sentimental meaning for me. [00:06:22] Bob: In fact, through the years, Mack, David, and their sister all

lived in the home at some point with Mom, and so did... [00:06:30] David Herron: My youngest brother had two children. His daughter, my niece, had a son. And my mom actually took custody of

my great nephew, or my niece's son, right. My, my mom was raising him in school. She went to Catholic school and all that. She paid tuition for him and all that type of stuff.

[00:06:57] Bob: And while the home was so critical to well several generations of the family, it wasn't in the best of shape. Mom never really had money to do repairs. [00:07:08] Bob:

What kind of work did your mom need done? [00:07:11] David Herron: Oh, well she was going to have a complete renovation that she was doing. She was going to do the new heating system, new

electrical, new roof, everything, and she was doing a total upgrade on the home. [00:07:24] Bob: But one day, a neighbor named Cynthia Wallace begins to visit with the family. And after a

while she tells Effie, well she knows someone who can help with the repairs, a man named Mark Diamond, who knows about special programs for homeowners like Effie. [00:07:42] Bob: So tell me

when you first heard the name Mark Diamond? [00:07:46] David Herron: I actually was visiting my mom one day. I came over to visit my mom and he was there. Mark Diamond, I actually met him.

[00:07:57] Bob: Right away David has a bad feeling about Mark. [00:08:02] David Herron: Yeah, look, and let me be honest. I've been around some corners in life, you know, and all have

not been good corners, right. But I, I recognize certain things. It's just in your character kind of stands out and this guy was kind of like talking in a kind of fast-like way, in a

demanding, demanding type way. Like, like, uh he wasn't taking no for an answer, that type of way. And so that just came off bad to me. Didn't look good to me. And I can remember

he was adamant that particular day about my mom signing something. And I told my mom not to sign anything. That was my advice, you know, I told her, but I, I didn't know at that, at

that moment, but she had signed something. [00:08:53] Bob: David doesn't know who Mark Diamond is or what he's really doing there. But repairs on Mom's home have already

begun, sort of. [00:09:01] David Herron: I remember uh, going down to the basement just to look around and guys was, were working. They were a crew and, and it was like they started the job

is my take. Opened up a, I could see a lot of wires and like they were doing electrical work, starting and opening and then the next week they never came. It's like they started work

and never finished. So this particular crew, they was in that basement, they were there, and two or three days later they weren't there. Everything that they did was there open and just

the way I seen it when I went down and seen it. So nothing was done. [00:09:44] Bob: Days, weeks, months go by, and construction crews never returned to Effie's home. They just leave a

big dangerous mess. But Mom is pretty distracted at the time. She's very sick, battling cancer, and David thinks she's having cognitive issues too. She dies without any of the

repairs being completed. [00:10:06] David Herron: Yeah, my mom was hurt. And we didn't know the severity of it; my mom eventually died in 2013 of 4 stage liver cancer. [00:10:18] Bob:

Ah. [00:10:19] David Herron: So my mom was deteriorating. And my mom would have talks with, with us and I could remember she distinctly saying you know, "Try to keep this place for our

family." [00:10:31] Bob: David's mom really wants to make sure the house stays in the family. But soon they will all be on the brink of getting kicked out of the house, and so will

dozens of other neighbors in their West Chicago neighborhood. A local community organizer, a minister named Robin Hood, starts to notice something terrible going on. And well, it hits him

right in the face. [00:10:54] Rev. Robin Hood: One of the hats that I wear, I um employ hundreds of youth during the summertime and for many years. And back in the year of 2015, during one

of the, towards the end of the summer program, a couple of youth uh had came to the work site with a issue around a gentleman taking their grandmother's house. And they mentioned it, it

was through reverse mortgage. And that was the first time that reverse mortgage uh had actually entered my ears. [00:11:35] Bob: And, and what did you understand was happening at the time?

These two kids said their, this person had taken their grandmother's house or the bank had? [00:11:42] Rev. Robin Hood: Yes. They had had pointed out this housing predator, that he took

to do some kind of fraud with reverse mortgage you know, and they told me how their grandma had owned their house, you know, that apartment building for years, and their parents and them

also grown up in that, in that building. And she had lost the property through this scam artist. [00:12:10] Bob: Hmm. [00:12:11] Rev. Robin Hood: So they knew enough to say it was reverse

mortgage. It was unfortunate because these two young men were very helpful in keeping violence down, but I was told that that day was the day that they came to the worksite looking for the

predator which was like a block away from the worksite where he was still working on a property he had took from their grandmother. [00:12:38] Bob: And, and they intended to hurt him.

[00:12:40] Rev. Robin Hood: Oh yes. It, their intention was to get him for taking their family uh, home, and dream away. [00:12:50] Bob: And this predator, that was Mark Diamond? [00:12:52]

Rev. Robin Hood: Yes. The predator was Mark Steven Diamond. [00:12:56] Bob: So you talked to these two youth and you, you talked them out of doing what they were going to do, right?

[00:13:02] Rev. Robin Hood: Yeah, I told them, this is what you ought to do. Go put those guns up. That's not going to answer and tell everybody in the community that make Mark Diamond

the most safest man that ever walked the community because he has their inheritance in his pocket. And make him safe, you'll get the house back. [00:13:28] Bob: Hmm. That's a, that

was a really smart psychology with them. [00:13:31] Rev. Robin Hood: Yes, and it was uh, quick enough psychology because I didn't have time to call the police, didn't, you know,

all the things that people think you should do, none of that was there for me. The only thing I can do is tell them what I know best, that if you fight for something, eventually you can win

it. [00:13:52] Bob: But if, if Mark Diamond was dead, they weren't going to ever get their house back right? [00:13:55] Rev. Robin Hood: No, they wasn't never going to get their

house back. So... [00:13:58] Bob: Hmm. That was very, very smart, very smart. [00:14:02] Bob: Mark Diamond? Reverse mortgage? All this is brand new to Reverend Hood. He talked these two

teenagers off the cliff, but now he has to figure out who Mark Diamond is and what's going on? It doesn't take long. Soon he discovers that Mark Diamond has attacked his own

family. [00:14:19] Rev. Robin Hood: Well a couple months later my own aunt admitted to being a victim of his. [00:14:26] Bob: Wow. So it was closer to your family than you even realized.

[00:14:28] Rev. Robin Hood: Than I realized that then, before I knew it, it was over 26 different families that I knew about. And then the number just started going up and up and up.

[00:14:41] Bob: How did the reverend's aunt meet Mark Diamond? [00:14:44] Rev. Robin Hood: Well he came to her life through one of his uh, friends and partner-in-crimes. Mark Diamond

being white, he had a friend whose named Cynthia, who were able to come through to the African-Americans. [00:15:02] Bob: That's Cynthia Wallace, right? [00:15:03] Rev. Robin Hood:

Right, Cynthia Wallace, to talk to some of the uh people in the neighborhood. So she was used as the entry level into the community. [00:15:15] Bob: And she would just come in and, and knock

on the door and say hello and chitchat with people? How, how did she gain their trust? [00:15:20] Rev. Robin Hood: Chitchat with people, spend time with them. Barbecues and you know just

the things people did in neighborhoods. And she would uh, help build this, this relationship. [00:15:34] Bob: So she would, over a couple of months, and eventually Cynthia introduced your

aunt to, to Mark Diamond, is that right? [00:15:41] Rev. Robin Hood: Yes. So this went on for uh more than a couple months. This went on for a time. It had been going on for about two years

before I knew what was actually happening. So they actually build relationship and trust and things of that nature to make people open their doors to them. [00:16:06] Bob: And so, at one

point, how did Mark Diamond directly approach your aunt? [00:16:12] Rev. Robin Hood: He came to her with a promise of free government programs that she wouldn't have to, never have to

pay back. Uh, he never explained to her nor several of the victims that I met personally, that this was a reverse mortgage program that was a government program. [00:16:31] Bob: Oh boy, wow.

Your aunt needed some work done on her house, right? What dd she need to have done? [00:16:35] Rev. Robin Hood: She needed work in the first and second-floor apartments. She needed a roof.

Windows. A total of redoing on the building that she had owned for over 30 years that needed, that really needed some upgrading. [00:16:52] Bob: And did she have enough money, right, to pay

for those herself? [00:16:56] Rev. Robin Hood: Herself personally? [00:16:57] Bob: Yeah. [00:16:58] Rev. Robin Hood: Oh no. No, she was, she was on a fixed income. So... [00:17:02] Bob: So

this was like manna from heaven, this guy showing up saying there's a free government program to fix her house, right? [00:17:06] Rev. Robin Hood: Right. Right, and then he would use

the verbiage of, this is a CEDA program because her, Cynthia, knew that CEDA was the name that people knew in the community of about doing repairs and stuff at homes. So they would use that

line in order to get people to sign on. [00:17:29] Bob: What is the seeder program? I'm not familiar with it. [00:17:33] David Herron: So the CEDA program is a winterization, air

condition, program for people with uh limited to moderate income. It's a program that's been out for many years that, you know that has a, you know, a past good reputation.

[00:17:51] Bob: So he used that language and, and essentially got people the idea that this was money they would never have to pay back, right? [00:17:58] Rev. Robin Hood: Right. [00:17:59]

Bob: Um, but, but what he actually was handing them were forms to apply for a reverse mortgage? [00:18:03] Rev. Robin Hood: Yes. [00:18:05] Bob: Mark Diamond had persuaded Rev. Hood's

aunt and Effie Herron and dozens of others that there was a government program which provided money for desperately needed repairs. But the government program is really a reverse mortgage.

Diamond persuaded all these people, mostly elderly who owned their homes outright, to essentially sign their homes over to a bank. The cash netted from the transaction was supposed to be

used for repairs, but over and over again, crews would do a day or two of sham work, or nothing, and the move on. Mark Diamond would pocket the money and the families would be left in a

desperate situation. One way or another, reverse mortgages come due even if it's when the homeowner dies. And sometimes the bill comes due even sooner. [00:18:52] Rev. Robin Hood: After

she received minimal work compared to the money he got, and he disappeared for months at a time, couldn't be contacted or anything. So she knew then something was wrong, 'cause

you know, for somebody that's she could reach every day at any moment, all of a sudden now, she had a hard time reaching him. They uh, put a dumpster in the backyard, they started

taking apart some stuff and it in there, and then left her house dormant. [00:19:26] Bob: Oh God. Like she couldn't even live in it, was it that messed up? [00:19:30] Rev. Robin Hood:

It was still habitable, but it wasn't, you know it was work that just wasn't done. [00:19:35] Bob: Yeah, no, that's terrible, yeah. [00:19:37] Rev. Robin Hood: Yeah.

[00:19:38] Bob: So, so even before she was worried about a, I don't own a house anymore, she's not getting any of the work done that she's paid for. [00:19:43] Rev. Robin

Hood: Right. [00:19:44] Bob: Was that the typical situation for all these victims? [00:19:46] Rev. Robin Hood: Yes, same situation. It was, it was just like Groundhog's Day movie. Every

time I started hearing the same thing over and over and over again. [00:19:58] Bob: Eventually, Mark Diamond catches the attention of local media and local law enforcement. Juliet Sorenson

is part of a legal team that tries to help families caught up in Mark Diamond's scam. [00:20:10] Bob: Okay, let's go over the timeline a little bit. Do you remember the first time

you heard the name Mark Diamond? [00:20:15] Juliet Sorensen: I do, as a matter of fact. [00:20:17] Bob: What happened? [00:20:18] Juliet Sorensen: I received a phone call from the US

Attorney's Office here in the Northern District of Illinois. And I was told that there was a case that had been charged fairly recently in the Northern District. The case was described

to me, um, but specifically that there were an extraordinary number of victims who were in extenuating circumstances due to the fraud with a number of needs, and that these were all older

black homeowners on the West Side of Chicago. At the time I was serving as the Director of the Bluhm Legal Clinical at Northwestern Law School, and I was asked if it would be possible for

Northwestern's Legal Clinic to assist by offering to represent these individuals. [00:21:02] Bob: Juliet works with the Herrons back when David's sister, Barbara was also living

there. The condition that she finds the family house in is terrible. [00:21:12] Juliet Sorensen: My colleague, Sam, and I worked closely with an architect who advises us on the conditions

and the needs of our clients' homes. And when the architect, whose name is Ann Louie, visited the Herron home, she found a number of issues that had been directly caused by the Diamond

fraud. The stairs to the basement had caved in. The back door had been broken open and unable to be repaired so cold air swept through the house. The furnace was broken, and so Barbara left

a uh gas stove burner on so that the flame from the stove could heat the kitchen. But there was no working smoke detector in the home, and Barbara herself used an oxygen tank. [00:22:00]

Bob: Oh my God. [00:22:01] Juliet Sorensen: That is the type of harm that this fraud has caused time after time. [00:22:07] Bob: Meanwhile, someone walked away with, in that case, I

don't remember the amount, but $100,000, thousands of dollars anyway, and this woman is living in a place where she has to keep the burner on so that her kitchen isn't cold?

[00:22:16] Juliet Sorensen: That's exactly right. The cumulative loss amount from this fraud scheme is millions of dollars. [00:22:23] Bob: Everyone in Mark Diamond's path had two

problems, one worse than the other. Their homes were all left in tatters, repairs begun but never finished. But something worse soon followed. [00:22:34] Rev. Robin Hood: Every one of them

faced foreclosure. [00:22:36] Bob: Oh my God. [00:22:37] Rev. Robin Hood: And we took all them together and I got with Northwestern, the Bluhm Legal Clinic, and they, with their lawyers in

this battle against this predator, Mark Diamond. [00:22:52] Bob: They all faced foreclosure. David Herron's family has been to court several times after foreclosure proceedings were

triggered. Their nightmare didn't just impact his mom's health. Back in 2017, Barbara told the Huffington Post that their football playing brother, Mini Mack, who was also living

at the home at the time, well he'd actually packed his bags in the days leading up to a court hearing that temporarily staved off the family getting kicked out of a house, but the

ruling came too late for Mack. He died a few days before the hearing. Now why were all the families who were victims of Mark Diamond's scam facing foreclosure? [00:23:31] Rev. Robin

Hood: The mortgage provider would check on a property every few months and they would be able to tell if some, some of the work needed to be done, or things need to be done; that was another

trigger of foreclosure. [00:23:46] Bob: Got it, got it. When, when they have the mortgage, you have to keep the property to a certain state. [00:23:50] Rev. Robin Hood: Correct. [00:23:52]

Bob: So with a cascade of foreclosures coming up, Rev. Hood helps organize a campaign to stop the predatory repair reverse mortgage scam. And eventually, Illinois's attorney general

takes action. [00:24:04] Rev. Robin Hood: Yes, so we went to Lisa Madigan probably about 4 to 6 months from finding out and to our surprise, she knew who Mark Diamond was, she know what he

had been doing, and she told us that they uh were working on stopping some of his businesses, the names that he used. And we were able to help launch the investigation around the reverse

mortgage fraud altogether. So we, we helped added that extra investigative part about the reverse mortgage front. [00:24:41] Bob: And finally, Mark Diamond is arrested for fraud. But

that's only the beginning of the quest for justice and it's hardly a straight line. [00:24:50] Rev. Robin Hood: He was held just like a criminal should be held, uh without a bond

for a few years. But lo and behold, COVID came. And there were uh, the Feds thought it would be best for him to be out in order to get anything, you know, out of this. Well we didn't

feel the same, 'cause we knew his predatorial prowess was more than anything we had seen. So... [00:25:19] Bob: So when he got out, you were worried he would start doing it again.

[00:25:22] Rev. Robin Hood: Yes. And he did. [00:25:23] Bob: Remarkable. [00:25:24] Rev. Robin Hood: He got another elderly lady somewhere around the middle 20s, '22 or '23, and

they had to lock him up again. [00:25:35] Bob: It's, what a serial criminal. He couldn't stop himself it sounds like. [00:25:38] Rev. Robin Hood: Ah, he could not stop himself.

[00:25:40] Bob: Finally, in May 2024, Mark Diamond pleads guilty to wire fraud, but there is so, so much more work to be done getting justice for his victims. Much of that work falls to

Juliet Sorensen who spends years tracking down victims, simply writing to them offering free legal help was not enough. [00:25:59] Juliet Sorensen: Several people told me that they got our

letter but figured it was too good to be true, that we couldn't possibly be offering representation without seeking payment. Some other people told me that they had received our letter,

but they left it unopened um, because they just felt so bad and indeed, I think somebody used the word ashamed, about having been victimized by Mark Diamond. And I can understand that

because this is a legal system that has failed to deliver in the face of, a bald faced, exploitative fraud for now a decade. [00:26:35] Bob: I mean news stories saying there was this reverse

mortgage scam might not even get the attention of someone who thought they were getting a federal grant to fix their house up and then there was a problem with the contractor and that

happens all the time, and so they might not even realize they're a victim, right? [00:26:50] Juliet Sorensen: That's absolutely correct. And oftentimes when we hear from victims,

it is actually through a relative, through a child or a grandchild, who heard about the work of Northwestern on behalf of these individuals. [00:27:04] Bob: How many victims were there in

total that we know about? [00:27:07] Rev. Robin Hood: I believe it was 120. [00:27:09] Bob: And I'm going to guess virtually all of them, their houses were still in disrepair, right?

[00:27:14] Rev. Robin Hood: Yes. [00:27:17] Bob: David's sister has since passed too, so that house that used to be filled with family, well only David and the grand nephew remain.

[00:27:26] Bob: The house is a little bit more quiet now, isn't it? [00:27:28] David Herron: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so during this time, I was unable to just maintain everything by

myself. I, I, when my mom passed, my brother and sister were on fixed incomes, and I was working, right. And like when bills or taxes would come along or something dealing with the house, we

would split it three ways. Well, well when eventually they passed, it was just me. And that's when I was unable to just get anywhere doing stuff by myself. The house never got up to

par, never able to recover from the work not being done. [00:28:12] Bob: Still got the wires ripped up down in the basement, that kind of thing? [00:28:15] David Herron: All of that, yeah.

[00:28:17] Bob: And perhaps, more important, the risk of foreclosure remains. [00:28:22] David Herron: Through the help of the, the law group, they put in motions and one judge ruled in the

favor, in our favor where they stopped the foreclose. Right. And... [00:28:32] Bob: So you could stay in the house, thank goodness, yeah. [00:28:34] David Herron: Yes, we were, they were

able to stay in the house, and I guess I don't fully understand the whole process, but I know say when a, when if a judge, you put in a motion and the judge rules in your favor, then

the reverse mortgage, they have the appeal that they could go through, they have a, you know they try to go through stuff from their point of view and so I guess they, they filed a appeal

and to my understanding later on the next judge ruled in their favor. They were simply, now how can I put it? The attorneys on my behalf were saying, were arguing the point that it, it was a

fraud. That you know my mom took out this mortgage in, in, in good faith, and she never received any of the any, it was a fraud. The work was never done and she never got the money. So that

was what they was arguing. And one judge, the first judge ruled in our favor. Later on down the road I found out that on the, on the reverse mortgage side, I guess when they appealed, the

next judge ruled in their favor. [00:29:41] Bob: So you're going back and forth, you don't know if one day they're going to come make you leave the house, right? [00:29:46]

David Herron: Absolutely. [00:29:47] Bob: Wow, that's really stressful. [00:29:49] Bob: Untangling the reverse mortgage situations, well it's a long, slow process. Juliet now works

at Loyola Law School and continues her work. [00:29:58] Juliet Sorensen: Once the original victim is no longer living, and in the event that their heirs are unable to make payments... I

should add by the way, if they want to sell the house, it's also now encumbered by a reverse mortgage. So regardless of whether or not you want to keep it as a family home for

generations or sell it because, you know, you no longer wish to keep it, your parent is deceased, this scam hits you in the face out of the blue as the heir of the original victim.

[00:30:27] Bob: And yet years later some of these people are still facing foreclosures? Still some of these families might still lose their homes even though they got nothing, and

someone's in jail? How can that be? [00:30:39] Juliet Sorensen: There's a presumption in the law that defies commonsense and basic principles of contract law. And that is that once

a foreclosure process has begun, the presumption favors the lender, that is to, say the bank. It does so even when the underlying mortgage itself was procured by fraud. We all learn in our

first year of law school that a contract is void if both parties don't knowingly enter into a contract, and that's exactly what a mortgage is. And yet, Professor Tenenbaum and I

have repeatedly encountered courts that without considering the equities of the case, simply point to that presumption under foreclosure law in favor of the lender. I'd also add one

other thing which is that you know the law as a matter of policy has what's called a statute of limitations. After a certain amount of time has passed, neither a criminal nor a civil

action can be taken if the number of years is more than the statute of limitations provides for. And there are reasons for that, but a statute of limitations doesn't make sense if an

individual doesn't learn that they have been defrauded until after years go by. And that's precisely what happened in many instances in this case, because reverse mortgage payments

don't become due and owing until the original borrower is no longer living. So there have been a series of systemic obstacles that we have encountered in our efforts to get a measure

of justice for our clients that really fly in the face of what justice means. [00:32:19] Bob: So somehow or another, foreclosure law trumps criminal law in this situation? [00:32:23] Juliet

Sorensen: No, these are two separate concepts actually, Bob. Um, so... [00:32:28] Bob: Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm not asking you a legal question, it's just the, the emotional

reaction one has, you know. [00:32:32] Juliet Sorensen: Yeah, no, totally. So you know, I mean with regard to the criminal law, Mark Diamond has now pled guilty, he's been sentenced, he

got, you know, a significant sentence. He was sentenced to 17 years in prison. Accompanying that sentence is an order of restitution that he has to make payment to his victims. Mark Diamond

spent his ill-gotten gains long ago. [00:32:55] Bob: Yeah, and so as you mentioned, the opportunities for relief are very small, but you know normally in that situation we're talking

about, um, you know, someone who invested, you know, $50,000 in a crypto scam, they can't get their money back, but in this case, an entity is legally coming after the home that they

live in, still years after this person's in jail. It's just hard to swallow. [00:33:15] Juliet Sorensen: Yes, yep, their, their shelter, as I said, that they worked hard and long

for and was their pride and joy. [00:33:22] Bob: For Rev. Hood, clearly Mark Diamond targeted a poor community, an African American community. [00:33:30] Bob: And for many families, the only

kind of generational wealth is the home, right? [00:33:33] Rev. Robin Hood: Yes, in the city of Chicago, West Side, like North Lawndale, that's the only value you have is your home.

[00:33:45] Bob: And so, so taking that from them is sort of like destroying a, a culture, even, right? [00:33:48] Rev. Robin Hood: That's right. It's destroying any type of wealth

gathering that you could get. There's definitely a racial element. I'll never forget when uh, the Feds asked me to slow down on my rhetoric about a reverse mortgage, 'cause I

had came to the conclusion reverse mortgages no good for people in communities of color. [00:34:07] Bob: Why not? [00:34:08] Rev. Robin Hood: I said there because in every situation there

was a open case of predatorial things in a reverse mortgage fraud. The education wasn't strong, the protection was not strong, and you could not find a high resistance of other ethnic

groups. The whites were not getting reverse mortgage. And because there was a higher uh, instance of educations in white communities. [00:34:36] Bob: And the decades' long fight, well

it spans generations. Many victims have died since the fight began. [00:34:44] Rev. Robin Hood: Two generations have passed away in most of these cases. We're down now to the

grandchildren now. And that's the thing about senior exploitation, you know and why it should be looked upon more legally binding. For instance, you know, people that are predators

towards uh seniors, they should be dealt with immediately. [00:35:06] Bob: Absolutely. And they should. That's the part of assuming if you have grandchildren now basically fighting for

their grandparents' rights... [00:35:12] Rev. Robin Hood: Yes. [00:35:12] Bob: ... I mean that's really what the fight's about right, you know. [00:35:14] Rev. Robin Hood:

Right. [00:35:16] Juliet Sorensen: I've learned a lot of things as a person and an attorney over the course of this representation. One of the things I appreciate about your podcast is

that you communicate the dignity of victims. My clients are dignified. My clients command respect. My clients did nothing wrong. But the popular narrative about the West Side of Chicago and

the neighborhood of North Lawndale is that it's crime-ridden, that people don't keep up these homes. That these are vacant lots that are good for nothing but demolition. I would

invite people who have that point of view to learn about this fraud and to actually hear from some of my clients to understand the loving care that these people have put into their homes,

their families, and their communities. [00:36:00] Bob: It's not hard to sense the frustration from all involved. [00:36:04] Juliet Sorensen: I believe that a good lawyer has to

acknowledge what the law in the system can do, but also what the law in the system cannot do. And that is brought into relief by this case. The law is primarily reactive. It is often playing

catchup, and in the case of financial fraud, in particular, a legal remedy more often than not comes too little too late. I still believe in the rule of law. I believe that the courts have

the power to deliver justice, but I would be the first to acknowledge that justice meted out by a court in the best of times is often insufficient. [00:36:46] Bob: I spoke with David Herron

who was one of many victims whose, whose parent passed away during the course of this entire ordeal, and so how do you get justice in a situation like that? [00:36:55] Juliet Sorensen: Well

that's exactly right. And you know I think I used the term force multiplier earlier in terms of the effect of the fraud over time. The expression, the wheels of justice turns slowly, is

true in and of itself, but the slow process also really exacerbates the impact of the fraud. In the case of the Diamond scheme, he had told his victims that this reverse mortgage would fund

needed home repairs, which would be done of course by Mark Diamond's contractors. The needed home repairs were either not done at all, or they were done in a way that was so shoddy

that the underlying issues with the home became worse over time. And so now, you have homeowners who are the stabilizing influence in their community, pillars of this community. People who

had owned the family home for decades, who planned to leave it to their family, who believed, because they had always been told that the way to amass generational wealth is through real

property. And now they have a house which they no longer own, repairs they cannot afford to fix, and in many instances, Bob, they end up being referred to the City of Chicago Department of

Administrative Hearings because the, the homes now have building code violations because the repairs are so extreme, they're posing a real safety hazard. [00:38:22] Bob: A big part of

the Diamond crime is the force of this criminal's personality. [00:38:27] Juliet Sorensen: He would tell them about himself, his family members, you know they would, they would tell him

about theirs. They established relationships of confidence in many instances. And sometimes, Bob, you know, a victim's relative would come along and say, "Mom, who's this?

What are you doing?" "Well this is my friend. This is Mark." And that relative would be concerned, ask probing questions, but at this point, Mark had wormed his way into the

hearts and homes of these folks to the point where they actually had disagreements with their children or their other relatives and said, "No, he's, he's my friend. I do trust

him." I find that especially heartbreaking. [00:39:09] Bob: They trusted Mark more than their own family. [00:39:11] Juliet Sorensen: Exactly. [00:39:12] Bob: But to pull off a crime

like this, well, he needed help from a set of other criminals and from the system. [00:39:21] Juliet Sorensen: Indeed, he could not operate alone. He has been charged along with several

other co-schemers. Three of those individuals were charged along with him, and three of them were charged separately, and actually re--, reached negotiated resolutions for their criminal

cases. But the co-schemers all had particular rules. One was a woman who worked on Diamond's behalf as his front person seeking entry into, into homes and arranging for conversations

with homeowners. Another was a loan originator. Another was the owner of the title company. All of them were knowing participants in the scheme to defraud these homeowners by persuading them

to apply for reverse mortgages and then draining the equity out of the homes. [00:40:08] Bob: For David Herron, well, his future is still uncertain. [00:40:14] David Herron: You know I

don't understand all the ins and outs of it but I just, I know right from wrong. I know the house was left in disrepair, never, never fixed or never, you know, what a 80-, or

90,000-dollar loan would have, would have made the house immaculate. It was enough money to do everything that that house needed to be done, improve it, update and upgrade. None of that was

ever done. So it left the house basically in disrepair. [00:40:39] Bob: Well all you guys are still worried that one day you might have to leave, right? [00:40:43] David Herron: Absolutely.

That's, it is a lot of uncertainty still up in the air. I don't know, and presently I'm trying to look at some things. I've got one of my, my daughters that lives in

Oklahoma, I, my daughter, I got daughter that are out of state. One is in Arizona, one is in Oklahoma. Other daughter's in Decatur, just right now presently trying to look at options.

You got to understand this, no one on my behalf has ever sit down with these, with the mortgage people and say, how can we settle this? How we get through a interim on this. You know and I

guess on they behalf it's about money. And I understand the business aspect of it, but on my behalf it's more than just a money situation. I don't have money. So I ain't

never had money, so that ain't ever been a problem for me. But I understand the business aspect of things, but only from my behalf it has way, a lot of sentimental value; I grew up

here, my kids grew up there. And that has a lot of that type of value, that's just priceless to me. And it's generational. It's not just me. I'm 72 years old, so I have

more days behind me than I do in front of me and I am, and I am aware of that. So it's, it's generational stuff to me, has a generational meaning to me. And my, my children and my

daughter is, we're looking at some avenues to see can we come to a resolve on this? Now I'm not able to. I'm sickly, I have, I just a couple years ago I had a triple-bypass

heart surgery, so I got health issues and stuff and that and that, and you know that, that's life. But it's a lot of things are still unresolved. There's uh houses that still

needs a lot of work, it's in disrepair, so it's been, been a rough go say the least. And it's taken a toll on me because you got to understand this, I didn't say this

part to you. One of the things that my mom said to me before she got real, real bad and before she just deteriorated to the point of hospice, when there's nothing the doctors could do,

my mom expressed to me what that home meant to her and she expressed to me – try to keep this house. So for my mom to say that to me, it takes on a different meaning for me as a son. I

don't know if I'm making any sense to you or not, Bob, but I'm telling you. [00:43:10] Bob: Well that makes a lot of sense, that your mom's dying wish is that her legacy

is this house stays with the family, right? [00:43:16] David Herron: Absolutely. [00:43:17] Bob: And that would be incredibly important to you, yeah. [00:43:18] David Herron: Yeah. Yeah, and

so, you know, it's just a lot of mixed emotion. I'm angry, I'm upset, and I just, I notice the stuff that it is causing. It's hard to even put in words. It's hard

to describe. You know when someone wrongs you when you, when you do a wrong. When somebody did it wrong to you or caused a great harm. So look, it has affected me in a lot of areas of my

life physically, mentally, spiritually. This has had an effect on me. And I actually, I pray to God for relief and you know, uh comfort, understanding. And it's hard to kind of

understand stuff when somebody has did, did a wrong to you. But as a Christian I, I, I know that I can't let not forgiving someone overtake me. Forgiveness is not just me forgiving,

it's, it's a process that I had to go through. And I'm going to tell you, I have went through a lot of grief with this. That's when you want to do things and you're

not able to do things that you want to do. That's weighs heavy on me. Real heavy. [00:44:26] Bob: When I asked Juliet what lessons she hopes people might learn from this story, she was

quite direct. [00:44:31] Juliet Sorensen: Sometimes even with the best efforts, the legal system comes too little too late. Mark Diamond is in prison. I don't believe he will defraud

somebody else in his lifetime. But that is incomplete justice to his victims. They still must reckon with the devastating consequences of this reverse mortgage fraud. Um, my colleagues and I

advocate on their behalf tenaciously and as best we can. Um, but it's an uphill battle. And so prevention when it comes to frauds is far better than seeking redress or a remedy on the

back end. [00:45:12] Bob: So after hearing this sad Chicago story, what should listeners think about reverse mortgages? [00:45:19] Juliet Sorensen: So, you know, I want to start with the

premise that a reverse mortgage in and of itself um, you know, not only is it legal, um, but it is also not necessarily from a policy perspective a bad thing. This is an opportunity for

individuals who have a real asset and have, have shown themselves to be trustworthy borrowers because typically they own their homes outright, um, to have access to cash or a line of credit

under situations where they might not otherwise have access to that cash flow. It is consistent with our banking system which really facilitates ease of borrowing. And that, Bob, is where

the problem arises, because the system that facilitates ease of borrowing, without meticulous quality control by lenders, is a system that sets itself up for scammers to exploit vulnerable

homeowners. [00:46:16] Bob: I can sign a couple of pieces of paper and the next thing you know, there's $100,000 in my checking account, and that seems nice, but also it, every time

I've ever done anything like that, it seemed frighteningly easy to me. [00:46:25] Juliet Sorensen: That's right. And there are laws on the books uh in Illinois and more generally

related to the need for borrowers to be informed, knowing consent, knowledge of the responsibilities that come along with a reverse mortgage. I can tell you in this case, those were skirted

all too easily, and nobody, including the lenders, sat up and said this seems strange. There is an extraordinary number of reverse mortgages being applied for by homeowners who are all

black, and all in one neighborhood, all of whom own their homes outright. [00:47:02] Bob: I can't really ask you if reverse mortgages are good or bad, but can you talk about what people

need to know about reverse mortgages when they even think about them? [00:47:08] Juliet Sorensen: I'd be happy to. A reverse mortgage is tempting because the loan doesn't have to

be repaid until the homeowner no longer lives in the home or passes away. That doesn't mean that the loan will never become due in owing. It doesn't mean that the consequences of

foreclosure and eviction will never come to pass. So I would say to your listeners that it is essential that a reverse mortgage be a family conversation, that the consequences, that the

ability to pay be discussed with the homeowner, but also that homeowner's heirs, whether they are family members or other people. If an individual has a trusted financial advisor,

whether that is a formal relationship or an informal relationship, talk this out because the terms are very real, even though they may not come to pass in the lifetime of the person

considering getting the reverse mortgage. [00:48:06] Bob: I feel like reverse mortgages are suitable for kind of a narrow set of people in a specific kind of circumstance. And the irony of

finances, that narrow set of people usually don't need reverse mortgages it seems to me. [00:48:20] Juliet Sorensen: I know exactly what you mean, Bob, and, and I agree. [00:48:24] Bob:

What does David Herron want people to remember about him and his situation? [00:48:30] David Herron: I know it's kind of hard to put in words, you know, because I, I cannot express to

you, I'm not elegant enough, or I don't know the words to use, to describe what this means to me. You're talking about my mom, you're talking about a family home,

you're talking about how it affect not only my mom, her children, her grandchildren, her great-grandchildren, my children, you know so it, it has a real, real deep, I mean to the core

mean, I don't know if I'm making any sense, Bob. [00:49:06] Bob: Oh you're making all the sense in the world, honestly. [00:49:09] David Herron: I, I don't know how to,

how to express that. I don't what to take from with people get out of this. Hopefully uh, my church has been doing a lot of stuff and I read a lot of stuff talking about justice and

righteousness and right, and so, listen, justice served with this guy getting sentenced, for Mark Diamond getting sentence, yeah. Okay, some justice was served, but ours never come, that

would never, you know the years that sentence is 17 years. It's more than 17 years’ worth of damage, and you know with my family, with my mama, you know what I, what I uh witnessed my

mom go through and what my family's been through since then. And what I'm going through even to this point. And so I, I don't know what to take of it here. I, of course

I'm glad some, some justice was served, but that money that was taken from my mom, the things that my mom wanted to accomplish for the house has never been done as a result of that, so

how is that rectified? How is that justified? I mean how, how is that made right, and that's kind of what, what a lot of what my feelings is now, it's hurtful. It is very, very

hurtful. You know so I don't know if I'm making any sense in that but, but it's, it's a lot. It's a lot. [00:50:27] Bob: It's really hard to put into words, I

know. [00:50:29] David Herron: Yes, it is. [00:50:32] Bob: For The Perfect Scam, I’m Bob Sullivan. (MUSIC SEGUE) [00:50:40] Bob: If you have been targeted by a scam or fraud, you are not

alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next. Our email address at The

Perfect Scam is: [email protected], and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their

story, write to us. That address again is: [email protected]. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree; Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive

Producer, Julie Getz; and our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The

Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan. (MUSIC OUTRO) _END OF TRANSCRIPT_